And we're off! Please note that this discussion is chock full o' spoilers. If you haven't seen season five yet and you plan to, you might want to come back later.
JRS: Let’s just start with, at least having another dimension falling on your head was a great metaphor for 2025. I’m just kind of still murky on Vecna’s life goals here. I thought there was supposed to be an army invading Hawkins. I don’t think what we got was terrible but it wasn’t what I expected. Was it for any of you?
In terms of the finale and fight, I loved that Vecna had to fight his own head to get to the children. I loved that they brought back the Mind Flayer. I guess it was a little weird their greatest physical weapon, the Flayer, turned out to be basically an incubator the entire season? But it made sense the Flayer had merged with Vecna. Maybe the Flayer was the army in Vecna’s vision for Nancy, or maybe that was a lie, the way the Flayer lied to Hopper. Opinions?
What exactly was the benefit to flattening this planet with another planet?
I was happy Will fought his inner demons as well, yet I had hoped to see more from him. I also am confused about how his powers work. I thought Vecna getting hurt would hurt Will at once point but it didn’t. Maybe coming out makes it tough for aliens to cause you hive mind pain? Still, did we all love seeing Will the Wise in action?
That moment where Hopper is bewitched into shooting Vecna and then into thinking he has shot Eleven was some of the best acting if the dumbest move in the episode.
From a character perspective, I think the younger kids are probably the best additions to the show. I have absolutely loved Holly’s character arc and Derek’s. What I didn’t like over the season was the whole "El and Kali have to die" meme. It doesn’t make sense – scientists were messing about before they came and they’ll mess about after they go. At least having individuals who know it’s happening and fight back give the world a chance. Hopper is so good convincing El she deserves life. But the idea that Kali and El go poof and all the bad scientists go darn it and go home doesn’t resonate with me at all. They might make Henry’s blood inaccessible. But as the season showed, things like exotic matter were the creations of science. Am I alone in thinking El was overthinking it?
Do I believe Will’s version of events? Yes, totally. Once El decides on a course of action she holds to it. But that moment was drawn out way too long.
Also, did anyone else love seeing a cleaned up Hopper again? I don’t know how he got his job back but he looks awesome!
Of the final scenes, I like the Squawk Breakfast Club the least, and the graduation scene with Dustin and proposal with Hopper the best. I admit the whole sequence felt like a gratuitous set of goodbyes, but I was tearing up at all of them.
Panda: Overall, I think they stuck the landing, at least where the characters are concerned. Where the plot machinations are concerned it was a bit of a mess, but I honestly cared very little about all of that by the time the credits rolled – I was a blubbering mess!
I found the ending to the season at large much more ambiguous than some other fans did. To me it was clear that El had gone through with her plan to sacrifice herself. Mike’s story of her secret escape was just that, a story for them to hold on to as their fantastical childhoods came to an end. I think that’s a beautiful note to end not just El’s story on, but the story of all the core characters.
The season felt like one big epilogue for the whole group, and I especially loved that final scene. I knew they couldn’t resist the idea of one last game in the basement before passing the baton to the younger kids. I’m welling up again just thinking about it.
A major thing for me when a series ends is if I would like to revisit the story again from beginning to end. I certainly wouldn’t return to Game of Thrones, for example. Thankfully, I absolutely think I’ll be returning to Hawkins at some point. So that to me makes this ending a success.
Samantha M. Quinn: Okay. So here are my thoughts, and a few answers to Joseph's questions.
This season was still a bit long, and I'm not sure if every plot point was necessary. However, I genuinely love all the character stuff. Will's journey was a highlight, and while his coming out scene has gotten a lot of flack, it was important for both the character and his journey. Vecna's army might've been referring to the children, but he hadn't quite gotten the inspiration for the whole planet merging thing yet. Or it was an intentional misdirection or outright lie to keep Nancy off his trail. She was arguably both the strongest leader and toughest of his primary adversary group. He had already written off Max and Will, and clearly didn't care much about the rest. He also couldn't infiltrate Eleven's mind directly so that makes sense.
As for Vecna's master plan, it was mustache twirling evil, but it was explained. The dimension he ended up in was clearly a desolate hellscape and the Mind Flayer wanted something better and coveted our planet. So Vecna was trying to merge the two dimensions and kill off humanity in the process. As for Will, I think he's connected to the hive mind and specifically Vecna but not as a full member of the hive. So at times he is fully connected and feels what the demos and Vecna feel, and at other's he is in his own mind. I think when he takes control he is like Vecna in a way and can hurt the hive without being affected by that harm.
I actually loved the proper introduction of Holly. She has always kind of been in the background and I always got the feeling she was supposed to be important so I'm glad they stepped up her character. Derek was also a highlight, and honestly most of her friends while getting minimal screen time were good as well. I also loved what they did with Robin and especially Robin and Will's relationship. It felt supportive and made sense to me as LGBTQA+ representation in the late 80's suffering from casual violence, ignorance and intolerance. Will putting himself out there and coming out like he did took a lot of bravery, it was very likely at least one or more people in that room could've pulled away from him.
I also love the Vickie got in on the truth although I'm not sure Robin and Vickie's relationship survived. For me that conversation on the roof with Robin, Jonathan, Steve and Nancy was both needed and a touch bittersweet. They are trying to hold onto each other, but you could almost feel this underlying truth that this was likely it for them. Obviously the Byers and Wheelers will stay connected to a degree, but Steve staying in Hawkins means he will see less and less of his friends over the years. It was heartfelt but sad.
The show wrapping up on the Dungeons and Dragons game was perfect, and I didn't catch that Mike was reenacting the scene where Eleven died. Even when it was happening I kept wondering how she was standing like she was, when she had three suppressors directed right at her. I'm almost positive that some version of his guess was true, that Kali was still alive, but mortally injured and did help Eleven escape the soldiers.
As to your question, yes, the original experiments into bridging the dimensions caused the chain of events to be set in motion, that may not be possible anymore. With the bridge down they would have to create a new one, and it would probably be to a different world. Without the Mind Flayer's little stone that infected Henry originally, those powers would never have happened. Knowing that all those kids were made using Henry's blood as the original source and that Eleven was the only one who ever developed powers like him means that without her they are completely cut off from the super human experimentation. So Eleven sacrificing herself does make logical sense, but not emotional sense. Personally, I believe Eleven is out there, because otherwise Kali is an utterly wasted character.
I really loved the stuff with Max throughout the season, it was a neat way of using her without immediately having her wake up. Her scenes with Holly were overall excellent, and getting to see Henry's mind was a really good way of giving us important exposition without dragging us down in monologues.
Hopper being somewhat suicidal throughout the story and then his complete turnaround and proposal at the end was a bit jarring for me. It does thematically make sense, realizing that Eleven was able to make her own choices and he wasn't responsible for them. Yet he just watched his second daughter die and there was nothing he could do about it, I don't know if even eighteen months is enough to get over that kind of trauma again.
I absolutely loved Mrs. Byers accepting his proposal, but even more I loved that she was the one to deliver the final blow to Vecna. After everything that man did to her and the people she loves, it felt cathartic.
Those are my two cents.
JRS: Thanks for the response Samantha! I agree with so much you are saying, especially the part about Joyce doing the end-game hacking. I guess you’re right about Vecna wanting to kill humanity, although given the ability to get more power from humans via the Mind Flayer Matrix, I still have more questions than answers though especially in response to the military questions.
— If the stone was the source of Henry’s powers, then was there more where that came from? The scientist Henry kills implies that there was knowledge of what happens when the stone bonds to individuals. And all that happened before Henry came to power.
— Just like Henry, Holly and her friends – and Will – received ‘stuff’ from the Mind Flayer and Will also developed powers and although those seem dependent on the hive mind, the military wasn’t in on all that. Why wouldn’t they experiment on these potential children?
I do think the way the story fell out made it impossible to have any other ending for Eleven. This show was as much about her journey to humanity as it was about Vecna’s descent into the demonic. Her story reminded me of Mark Twain’s 44, another number-named character with magical abilities who was also very concerned about the goodness of humanity, although 44’s was far less tragic (for 44.)
Also, already said it, but double props for an amazing graduation speech!
Samantha M. Quinn: I think the Eleven living or dying argument will live beyond the show. I guess for me it was Mike thinking about the inconsistencies with those final moments, and there were small details that didn't make full sense to me. I also wasn't thrilled the way they made the military guys utterly devoid of mercy, compassion or understanding and that Dr. Kay was just straight evil with no redeeming qualities. Even Papa ended up with something resembling a heart. I did love Dustin's graduation speech, too!
Victoria Grossack: Well, I binged the last five episodes yesterday, my first indulgence of that nature in awhile, and it was enjoyable. Since I have forgotten so much of what went on before, it's hard to comment on the larger arcs, but I will make some remarks on specifics.
I think El must be hiding in my Swiss village, Troistorrents, which literally means "three waterfalls."
I loved Dustin's valedictory speech and his comments on good and bad chaos and how it applies to our lives. And I don't know why we all apologize for profanity, especially between generations. Really, compared to what one hears today, it was extremely tame.
I'm glad Nancy and Jonathan broke up.
My favorite characters were Max and Holly, although Lukas and Derek were very good as well. As were Robin and Steve.
In the 1980s, even 1989, coming out was very difficult.
I agree that it would be nice if there were more nuance to the military.
Looking forward to a rewatch of this when I break my leg or get benched for some other reason.
Mikey Heinrich: I totally agree about it being perfect for Joyce to get to be the one who delivered the final blow(s) to Vecna.
My absolute favorite moment of the episode though was the exchange between Erica and the science teacher whose name escapes me about the time and place for cursing. 'It feels GODDAMN swell!' might be my new go-to response. Loved it.
Mostly I'm just echoing a lot of the points that everyone else has already made, but I will add – did Henry as a villain feel a little queer-coded to anybody else, or am I just hyper-sensitive to that sort of thing? Part of what makes that sort of story work is an underlying 'the gays are coming for your children' threat (which I don't for a second believe was intentional on the part of the show, it's just so deeply ingrained into American cultural storytelling that it feels like it's in the mix there. Possibly just me.)
Regarding A Wrinkle in Time, I love that book, but haven't read it for about forty years. I'm struck by how much of that storyline influences the plotlines shown here. And now I have to re-read the book and then re-watch the entire series to see how much of it is in there. The second sequel to AWiT is named A Swiftly Tilting Planet, and I really wondered if the line (I want to say it was from Murray? too lazy to go back and check) about them facing a 'rapidly descending planet' was a nod to that. Might be a stretch.
The pedant in me wants to point out that it was a rapidly descending dimension, wasn't it?
And the Skwawk Club scene at the end made me marvel at how well they integrated Robin into the core group. Max, too, for that matter. I don't know why it hadn't clicked for me until the class of '89 graduation scene, but I graduated in '90, which means the main characters were essentially my peer group. Good news for Will, though. I can personally verify that the early to mid 90s were a wonderful time to be young and gay if you were in a city with a thriving community.
And lastly, speaking of cities, as a proud Minneapolitan, I thoroughly approve of Prince's role in the destruction of evil.
Samantha M. Quinn: If the internet rumors are to be believed (which I doubt they are), we'll be getting a new episode today (January 7) which will be the 'Real' finale. Called "Conformitygate," it is picking up on little details and easter eggs that point to the idea that everything that has happened since around episode four has been a false memory implanted by Vecna. I don't think this is remotely possible, but if it happens... internet trolls will lose their minds.
Either way, this was the close of a decade-long streaming experiment that I will personally miss.
Goodbye, Stranger Things. Save a waffle for me.
As a follow up there was in fact no secret 9th episode. The Confirmitygate internet theory is officially debunked.
ReplyDelete